I went to a service in an Anglican church this morning.
We prayed for the souls of the dead, said that the bread and wine 'will become' Jesus' body and blood, sang the wrong words to In Christ Alone (the 'love' of God was satisfied, not his wrath), proclaimed that the Spirit proceeds only from the Father (in the Nicene creed), and used a eucharistic prayer which mis-quoted Jesus (his blood was shed for 'all', rather than 'many').
I think that most, if not all (including the denial of God's wrath being satisfied) are explicitly against the 39 Articles, and the Book of Common Prayer. In what sense was this an Anglican service, other than that it was taken by an Anglican priest? We have universalism, a denial of substitutionary atonement, and the 'presence' of transubstantiation.
Apparently the problems with the creed and eucharistic prayer were misprints... but what misprints!
design © bcg mmviii
The Spirit proceeding only from the Father at least means that it was the creed agreed at Constantinople in 381 rather than the one unilaterally adopted by the Pope in the build up to 1054. I never quite understood why the Reformers stuck with that one. Or, for that matter, with the Tridentine version of the “Apostles’ Creed”, rather than the Old Roman Symbol.
And I don’t think there’s anything wrong with praying for the dead (and the 39 Articles don’t forbid it - have we had that argument yet?). Though of course the doctrine of Purgatory is repugnant to the Word of God, as the 39 Articles say.
Probably because they thought it theologically sound… I think that the Spirit does proceed from the Father and the Son - although I might lean towards Moltmann’s gloss: the Spirit proceeds from the Father of the Son, and receives his form from the Son of the Father. As for the Apostles’ Creed, I don’t know.
Praying for the souls of the dead? If we are judged by our works, and ultimately by our faith in Christ, what sense is there in praying for the dead? It is too late for them. 2 Corinthians 5.10 is perhaps relevant here. And, does praying for the dead not imply they are somewhere they can be helped (i.e. purgatory)?
On the creed - my question is the ecclesiology, not the doctrine (though I think “from the Father through the Son” is better).
You assume that we only pray for things we expect to change as a result of our prayer.
What is the correct response to observing that God has promised something? What does Daniel 9 (for example) tell us in this context? What is Paul’s attitude to the perseverance of the Thessalonian Christians in 2 Thes? (stated 1:5,10; 2:13; 3:3; commanded 2:15; prayed for 1:11)
I’m not sure I assume that. If we pray FOR something, surely there is an explicit hope that what we pray for will happen? Surely that is what petitionary prayer is all about? It is most certainly not all there is to prayer, but praying FOR the dead is most definitely a petitionary prayer.
In 2 Thessalonians Paul prays for steadfastness, which he says has been given by God, and which the Thessalonians must work to achieve. This demonstrates Paul’s insistence that we are not simply passive receivers of God’s blessing, and equally that without God’s grace we can do nothing.
There is a difference between hope and expectation when it comes to prayer, I think. Daniel hopes (and petitions) that God will answer his prayer to forgive Israel - but he knows that God’s judgement is righteous, and so cannot expect forgiveness.
Praying either in hope or expectation for the dead is theologically wrong, I think - they are asleep, either in Christ or not in Christ, and there is now nothing that can be done for them. They will be judged accordingly.
If we prayed to God for mercy on those who are not in Christ, we would be asking him to be unfaithful to his promise of judgement - we would be universalists.
In Daniel 9, Daniel observes that God has promised (through Jeremiah) to restore Jerusalem. Surely, one might argue, he should just see that God has promised it and buy shares in city reconstruction companies or something.
But no, having observed that God had promised to do it, he prays that it will happen.
As does Paul in 2 Thes.
Part of the correct Christian response to God’s promises is to pray that they will be fulfilled. So when my Christian gran died, I know that God has promised to save her. So part of my response to that is to pray that he will. Not because I doubt it or because I think my prayers will change anything, but because that is how we respond to God’s promises.
If you want me to rationalise why prayer works like that sometimes rather than just observing Scripturally that it does, I think part of it is because of the way it shapes our priorities and refocuses them on God’s promises, and part of it is because of the effect on me of consciously making myself trust God and expressing that trust in God through prayer. Is there more to it than that? Maybe.
Oh yes, and I argue the praying for the dead thing at more length here.
The people of Israel prayed to ‘remind’ God of his promises when it seemed like he had forgotten (e.g. Exile). I think in Daniel 9 it is ambiguous whether Daniel is praying for God to restore Israel in 70 years’ time (as promised in Jeremiah), or whether he is praying for God to restore Israel now, not to wait the full 70 years.
The point is that these prayers (in Daniel and 2 Thessalonians) are never prayers for the dead, but prayers for the living, where there is the possiblity of change. I maintain that prayer for something implies hope for change (or hope for things NOT to change but to carry on as they are), by expressing our desire for something to be different to the way it is.
Regarding the dead, there is no possibility of change, therefore why pray for them? We can thank God for them, most certainly, knowing that those who die in Christ will be with him in glory. When someone is alive, we can pray for them, that God will save them. When they die in Christ, we should instead thank God for them, knowing they are safe with him.
Calvin himself is pretty clear on this. It is not commanded in Scripture, so we should not do it. The desire to pray for the dead comes out of a human desire for comfort, not the Word of God. Further, there is no benefit to be gained for the dead by our prayers, so why pray? Here is a long passage from Calvin condensed as much as I can: